Den Fleser asks: As a developer wanting to switch to a contractor‑based B2B solution provider with a target of $20K a month, how much daily time is needed to complete the course and how many hours daily are required to get the first client to earn $4‑6K a month?
How much time is needed daily to complete the actual course? On average, when people join, assuming you have no automation experience, your first few days are pretty long. You'll usually spend somewhere between 3 to 5 hours a day just taking the automation courses because we now have a bunch of automation courses. After that, the amount of time you spend per day tends to go down. The first week or so will probably take you like 3 hours a day. The reason is you're figuring out how to do things like outreach, setting up the systems, and also doing outreach the same days. After about a week, most of the systems are set up because you've done the work before, and then it's just pure outreach along with some administrative steps that you have to do every day. That's maybe 2 hours a day. Eventually you get down to maybe an hour and a half a day. After about a month into the program, you're spending a consistent hour and a half a day on that to grow your business. You can certainly spend more and many people do, but that's what the program minimums are.
Second question: how many hours are needed to get the first client? That's really tough to say because there's a lot of luck involved. Some people get their first client after sending 20 pieces of outreach, others after 200, and in my early door‑to‑door days I got my first client after around 2,500 pieces of outreach. You don't have to do that physically; you can sit at your computer, use voice transcript tools, and the availability of opportunity is higher. As long as you follow the program, the guarantee is that within 90 days you'll have at least your first automation customer. If you charge $2,000 a month, you need two of those to hit the 4‑6K a month requirement. The lowest charges can be $100 to $500 for some people, while others making $25,000 on their first client. Income varies depending on how you acquire them. Upwork tends to be lower cost and lower income ($100‑$500), while cold email can bring $2,000‑$5,000.
I think we should start by clarifying terminology: I wouldn’t consider someone a client until they’ve paid money—or at least committed to paying for something, like a software subscription. Until money changes hands or an agreement is signed, it’s not a real client. Many people think a deal is closed when the prospect says yes, but it’s not truly closed until they sign or, better yet, pay the invoice. Saying yes is different from actually paying you. You said you started automation in November, learned it in two months, and since January you’ve only got two clients in the process of closing. Over roughly 60–70 days, if you’d done a daily outreach minimum—say 10 personalized Loom videos a day via Upwork, DMs, Instagram, X, etc.—you’d have contacted about 700 people. Yet only two showed interest, which is about 0.3% (2 out of 700), or roughly 1 in 350. That’s extremely low; to get one ‘yes’ you’d need to hear roughly 349 ‘nos’. If you’d done consistent, reliable outreach using the mechanisms I show in Maker School and on my channel (daily Loom videos, etc.), even if you were terrible at it, it would be statistically unlikely to get so few results. Typical response rates are around 2%, which would be about eight times better than what you’re seeing. So you likely reached out to far fewer people—maybe around 80 total, or about one per day. To improve, first be very clear about what ‘closed’ means—wait for payment or a signed agreement. Second, set a clear daily outreach minimum, like sending 10 customized Loom videos a day on platforms such as Upwork, Instagram, X, or via DM. Third, standardize your sales process: use a repeatable roadmap (like my ‘Roadmap to $25k a Month with Automation’) that funnels prospects into a meeting, then a sales call, then a detailed proposal or scope of work, and follow the same steps each time. Doing this builds infrastructure you can iterate on—run it for 10 clients, tweak, run another 10, and you’ll see conversion rates improve. That’s what I’d do if I were in your shoes.
Thanks for the question. Shipping an automation isn't really needed—you don't need to ship it at all because the shipping happens during the building process. You start by talking with somebody who likes what you have to offer, get them on a call, discuss the problems and solutions, do quick math to see how much the problem is costing them, and pitch your solution at a fraction of that cost—usually around 30%. Once they agree, you send a proposal, they sign it and pay you a little money. I like doing a 50/50 upfront and then upon delivery structure for a small intro offer, then transitioning to a retainer fully paid up front at the beginning of each month. After they sign, you need to get them on a kickoff call to walk through expectations, scope, timelines, and confirm the scope again before starting work—this is your point of highest leverage. If there are project problems, deal with them now while you have some of their money and haven't done work yet, rather than at the end when they're holding money out on you. On the kickoff call, you also have them sign up to the necessary platforms (like Make.com or N8N) so they have everything they need upfront and you never have to bug them again for access; the only messages you'll get are positive happy updates. As a Make.com partner and NN verified creator, I get preferential treatment like a thousand free operations via affiliate promo codes, which adds 3‑5% to your margin because they use your affiliate links and trust you as an authority. You have no liability for recurring payments—they take that on. Before the end of the call, you have all the credentials so you never have to bug them again. That's how you actually go about doing the shipping. To find clients in the really early stages of your automation agency, join Maker School.
Cool man, I know you already have a full-time job, which is fantastic. You're probably working 6 to 8 hours on that job and then spending time on lead generation, client calls, and fulfillment. You're doing a lot, and it's natural to wonder if it's time to bring on help. Here's what I'd do: first, set a near‑term realistic income goal—for example, $25,000 a month. Add up your salary, income from custom projects, and any other income. See how far you are from that goal. Then calculate your current internal hourly rate (maybe around $100/hour). If you need an extra $10,000 to reach $25k, that's about 100 additional hours. Ask yourself if you have 100 hours in your schedule. If not, you don't necessarily need to hire; you could raise your prices or pursue higher‑paying clients. Doubling your rates would double your income for the same time, getting you a large share of the way there. You could also increase lead volume—more leads give you more opportunities to pick the best‑performing projects instead of settling for low‑rate work out of scarcity. My decision‑making mindset is based on expected value: I evaluate the expected value of taking on a client or making a decision and choose the option with the highest expected value at that moment. Regarding hiring, my experience shows it's not easy to post a job, review candidates, interview, and hire quickly; you add a daily management time sync. The equation for effective hiring is whether the daily management time plus the cost of paying someone is less than the value they create by doing the work. Early in a hire, you're often not profitable until they're onboarded, trained, and up to speed. So, unless you have a much higher goal—say $50k, $100k, or $200k a month—you probably don't need to hire right now. As for scaling an agency model, I do think it gets harder to scale beyond a certain point. It was harder for me at $72k/month than at $25k/month. After a certain point you're no longer just an automation agency; you become a niche‑specific service or system‑providing agency. For example, one community member scaled to $80k/month by pivoting from automation services to selling cold‑email systems—a lead‑generation focus. If you start as an automation agency but find a super‑high‑ROI CRM project, you'll quickly shift toward being a recruitment‑agency‑style CRM provider. If you stick with the pure AI‑automation‑agency idea, you'll likely plateau around a $1M annual run‑rate, because that's when you need to hire managers to manage people, which is tricky.
Are we talking no clients in general, in any of my businesses, or specifically automation? You might be talking about automation. The way I did automation was I just started out on Upwork — applied to like 10 to 20 Upwork jobs per day along with my business partner at the time, and the vast majority of them said no to us. We used a custom Loom-video-based approach: I'd record a Loom of me talking through the problem and send out a ton of those. I got really good at explaining automation problems consistently, and we scaled that automation agency pretty quickly to $15-20K a month. We languished around $20-40K a month for a while because my partner wanted to operate it as a software consultancy taking on custom projects with a big hired team, but that didn't really work — the engineers we hired could drag-and-drop in tools like Make.com but didn't understand the business side, so the automations they built were brittle. That's when I learned how difficult hiring is for something as complicated as a software/automation project. My partner and I eventually split up amicably — he wanted to focus on the consultancy side and building resellable equity, I didn't. I kept the business, focused on high-leverage applications of systems I'd already built, scaled up Upwork applications and cold email (reinvesting most of my income into cold email), and simplified the offer down to mostly cold email systems and one-click CRM templates. Around $35-45K/month I couldn't keep scaling that way, so I started pitching a fractional-COO model: I took a few smaller clients paying $3-4K/month and gave them massive 20-30 page proposals saying, 'I want $10K/month plus 7% of your business, and here's how I'll justify it by delivering $100K/month in value.' That worked for a couple of clients, my revenue shot up, and combined with old clients coming back that same month I hit $72K in revenue (not all of it was recurring).